Peter: Let's talk a little bit about leadership. When I was going through and I described how this project was evolving and I was helping in trying to identify leaders in knowledge exchange and your name came up, several times. And within this field, within this area, within the work that you do, what is good leadership?
Robb: Good leadership is really about being open to…I think being open to innovation and having the ability to inspire other people so when I think about…kind of the changes that we're going through as an organization now is we've become more of a KT player and more of a knowledge mobilizer and I watch some of the…I watch the staff that we work with - KT is new…it demands learning a whole new language and new thinking about something…when I think for example about some of the people or staff I've worked with who work on community based research initiatives they get really excited about it and we're doing this and this is an important research question and I go, “ya but then what?. So what will happen”? You'll write that final report and what will happen? Peter: Well that's interesting that you say that because that's one of the ways that I've described research, based on my previous experience, was that research was fundamentally 3 questions: what, which is the data and the information, the so-what, which is the meaning and interpretation and analysis, and the now-what. Robb: The now-what – exactly.
Peter: And the now-what is really where the value gets created – where policies and programs and products and professional practice all emerge out of those decisions for actions. If you're looking at…really getting the value out of the knowledge that's within this communities and within this organization, how do you recognize when you're getting that value? What are the value statements in this work?
Robb: I know there's value when I see things change. Peter: Okay.
Robb: When I actually see an executive director say to me something like “that's a really interesting executive summary, can you help write that research…that set of research findings into my next funding proposal”. And then when I actually see that get funded or when I see a new partnership with people come together and we've done a scoping review or systematic review for them and we're kind of applying the results of that when we're thinking about building the team and identifying the final sets of questions that are going to get asked in the study – that for me is kind of the real application of evidence and there's value in that in that the collective efforts of those who have done this work before is being built into these things. So when I see things get funded, when I see interventions get designed on the front lines using people's work – that's what really excites me. Sarah Flicker, who I believe does phenomenal work with young people living with HIV, that has lead to really innovative youth based peer programming being funded and being housed in In-Service organizations – that to me is like the so-what and now-what. She did this incredible research on young people living with HIV in isolation and disconnection and the value of peer models and we actually can see it applied on the front lines now and we can see that it's actually working and making a difference in the lives of young people. That for me is value.
Peter: That's the value… Robb: That's the value….is that when I see the application on the front lines. The world of policy change; that's a fuzzier world for me and I often think do I really… Peter: You're not the first to say something like. Robb: I think do I really understand this world because there's always this linear assumption right, that research is going to lead to some kind of policy change and you know, I remember talking to colleagues recently in Berlin - we were at a conference and we were talking about this over dinner one night and we were talking about that linear assumption and somebody brought up when the Mike Harris government was elected in Ontario back in, what was it, 1995 they were elected I believe? And one of the first things they did was get rid of a lot of their research staff. So they had this policy platform – the Common Sense Revolution – they didn't need any research findings to support it – they knew exactly what they wanted to do and they implemented it and it was one of those kind of classic moments where there was linear discussion between this research data and policy findings was shattered and people said “you know policy work is a lot more complex and sometimes a lot more simple than all of that”… so…and research finding might play… Peter: …it plays.. Robb: a tiny little piece in it. Peter: Okay Robb: …but not the whole picture. Peter: You've talked a lot about how you're improving and changing and shifting the organization and the work. What are some of the biggest challenges you anticipate as you engage in and become more of a knowledge mobilizer.
Robb: Let's talk about external and internal. Internal there's excitement – there's a lot of excitement about it in terms of it really kind of taken us to the next level in terms of our strategic plan. One of the strong statements in our strategic plan is about helping communities address the social determinates of health and community based research was a real…like a real kick start focus to that strategic statement. Now KTE is the next step up. Community based research though you know, is you have this kind of…you have this set of principles, you read them – people who come from social justice backgrounds love it – they get excited. KTE doesn't have the same kind of passionate…you know we've got the push-user-pull – we've got all these kinds of terms that are…they're not as exciting and passionate as the CBR stuff. So as we shift a little bit in focus there's a…I think I would call it…people scratching heads and saying, “the knowledge to action framework is wonderful, it sounds great and we see this other language – what will it actually look like at the end of the day”. Peter: Okay Robb: So there's some…I think a challenge for us is to become kind of patient as a team as we build this and grow it and as we fully understand it together as a team. I think there's some people in the organization that intuitively get it right - snap of fingers – it's what they do, it's what they've always done. Those are some of the new people that have come in. There's others where…there was a…it was felt like the job was done if we funded a project and final report came in and it went in a file. It's a whole new kind of thinking for them…so that's the internal stuff - I think is the challenge and re-jigging people's work to answer that so-what and now-what set of questions – the adapt and apply principles. Peter: Okay Robb: Externally I think the challenges are going to be how to re-position ourselves as an organization that has simply been a funder – right, we gave out money – it's all we did – we gave out money so we're kind of a shotgun funder across basic clinical epidemiology and social science across all fields to now being a more strategic funder that responds to really critical needs out there in terms of what stakeholders want. And so there's going to be new things like targeted RFAs, more Think Tanks, more opportunities for dialogue and exchange, more opportunities to help build partnerships that will lead to intervention…kind of studies as well and I think…there's going to be some selling involved in that…some selling to external stakeholders about why we're making the shift – that knowledge really is about power – knowledge is power and to really be the most effective as an organization in terms of making a difference, we have to get knowledge into people's hands. Funding research is only one way of doing that. It still will be the principle business of this organization but its one tool…it's only one tool. Peter: Okay.
Let me look at the other side of this – not the challenges but what are the rewards that you anticipate. What do you think is going to come out of this shift?
Robb: Well, more efficient use of funding I would argue. I think there are many times when I look at something that gets funded or even if I've sat on funding review panels in the past for other funding organizations, where I thought didn't they do a study like this in Boston last year or didn't they do a similar study in Vancouver and aren't those findings relevant and adaptable in the local context – do we really need to spend another 3 quarters of a million dollars studying whatever the question is? So I think that there is going to be some efficiencies in how we spend money. I think though, at the very end of the day, we're going to, I think make a difference as an organization. I think it's actually hard right now as an organization…for many organizations that are like this that principally fund work, to stand back and say “what have we actually changed in the world – what have we actually achieved?” I don't think a lot of organizations can do that and every organization that I've worked with - and you know them – that has funded research, struggles with this fundamental question and for me it's exciting to see us go down a road where we're saying, “you know what, there's so much knowledge out there already” on the one hand and on the other hand “we're supporting all this knowledge now let's do something with it and let's use staff resources to do something with it”, so that we can respond to knowledge needs. If agency X calls us and says, “You know what? There's something in the news in Ottawa about crack pipes and everybody's crazy – can we pull some knowledge together and help them in terms of coming at it from an evidence base?”. We can do that – we'll be in a position to do that…and so that rapid response kind of thing. If someone says, “you know, we're writing a funding application on settlement issues for people with HIV who've come from war torn countries” – there's a knowledge base already out there – we can help pull that information together for people and actually not just simply give it to them but help them build it into a funding proposal – help them mobilize knowledge as well. I think those are the things that we're going to be able to say we have accomplished. That excites me because that makes a difference in the long run that stuff. Not just simply producing more knowledge but actually doing something with the stuff that's out there. Peter: Well that's interesting because you're part of a trend and I think that that is part of a conversation that is going on… Robb: It is. Peter:…and so that makes me think about the future and I've asked this question and I get groans because it's…if we had a crystal ball then it would be easy to plan because you would know where things were going to go but if you think forward 10 years, where do you see the work…your knowledge mobilization, knowledge exchange work going and what do you think are going to be the results of going down that path? Robb: What I think is extremely unique about this organization is we're one of the very few organizations that has said we will tackle and address the social determines of health and I actually think over a 10 year span; that's enough time to start making a dent in some things. Will poverty be eradicated as a problem for people with HIV? No, but there might be some innovative solutions that are in place or some policy work starting to happen. I think of some of the studies that we're starting to work on now as an organization that we fund or support or are active research partners in and I think the Housing and Health study which looks at the state of housing, the quality of housing for people living with HIV in Ontario and follows a cohort of people over time with people living with HIV over time to see how incidences of discrimination and housing or how poor quality housing actually impacts their physical and mental health over time - I actually think research like that because there are policy makers at the table, will make a change. So I think some of those things will start to be addressed – they won't be solved but they'll start to be addressed. And I think that's very unique…very unique. Peter: I really enjoyed this conversation and I always learn things when I'm with you and … Robb: thank you Peter:…one of the things I've been surprised in this set of conversations with various people – at first I wasn't asking kind of the open question but I am now and there's always something that emerges and so that's my last question. Is there anything that we haven't put on the table that needs to be said? Robb: I think, sure my own life learning in all of this – so I move from this person I think who's now been in this field about 20 years and I moved from kind of realizing - and this is reflexivity right – maybe what we all do as we age or as we get better as researchers or the combination of the two, I'm not sure which it is but I start to think about all of these, as I'm immersed in these discussions and I start to think about some of the naive assumptions I've had about my own work over the years and how like in community based research for example, how when we say that we want to produce research that actually leads to social change and much of that was inspirational and I fully believe and support those principles but when I look back and reflect and I think did we create social change or what did we do, I'm not really quite sure. So part of this, as you say we're kind of caught up in the current discourse about all of this stuff, part of me thinks it's fascinating to watch how I have become, in a very healthy way I think, critical of my own work that I've done in the past and think what will it look like at the next level – where will I go? Will I kind of let go to some of the…let go of some of the hard held positions and philosophies that I've had about my work over the years. Will they soften a bit? Will they become more wise? I'm not sure. So there's this own part of my learning that's shifting and changing and that's quite exciting for me – it is. I don't have all the answers to any stretch of the imagination but it's very, very exciting. So for example when I said before, CBR won't be a principle focus, it will be one tool of KTE and coming to terms with that is actually quite fine because it makes sense – I think ya, there are some people when it comes to developing knowledge, that will be the right way to do it – for others it won't be. Peter: That's great. Robb thanks for your time.
Robb: You're welcome Peter: It's been a real pleasure Robb: You're welcome
