Peter – Now one of the criticisms I've heard of alternative forms of exchanges, is that it's not evidence based – or you know it's a good story but you know that's not hard evidence. How do you react to something like that?
Sean Muir – Well I think this is something new. I think it's yet to be decided. I think you simply have to look at literacy numbers across Canada. I think it's something like 22% or something… Peter – Right. Sean Muir - …of Canadians have low… Peter – … functionally illiterate. Sean Muir – There's a million people in BC who can't read a pill bottle and have any of what it is that they're …what it is they are supposed to be taking, or how often. I mean that's an unbelievably huge number. I just think that our school system is set up to address a certain kind of literacy or to teach a certain kind of…a child or kid or adult. I don't think…I think we're missing a fifth of the population. Peter – Right. Then how does that specifically relate to aboriginal populations within BC? Do you think they are particularly vulnerable because of the socio-economic conditions? Or…I mean, how does the comic book and the issues that you are dealing with and the Healthy Aboriginal Network - how are you tackling the particular issues for the aboriginal communities that you work with?
Sean Muir – Well, I'm not an expert – I'm not an education expert…but I believe...I mean yes; I think that aboriginal kids are leaving school earlier. And I guess there are a whole bunch of reasons for that; socio-economic, a lot of the teachers are not aboriginal in school and so there's that learning block. But certainly it's higher, there's no question. Peter – It is higher, and this is one way of dealing with it. When I was asking people, out there - sampling for people to interview for these Pod-casts, you were identified as a leader in terms of knowledge exchange. What is leadership within this context? What is…why do you think you are considered a leader by others?
Sean Muir – Well…I mean I think…I think I had one good idea. I managed to exploit it and sell it. So I'm not totally comfortable with the idea of being a leader. I think I've had a good idea and that we're having had a good run and if it fizzles out, well then maybe I won't be a leader, but if we have another good idea and we build upon it then maybe there is something to it. Peter – When you are traveling across the country, and you're meeting with other people, what are sort of reactions are they getting? Do you see the sparks happening from this idea? You say you have one good idea, but you're talking about that idea in many different places to many different people. What sort of sparks are happening from other people because of that one idea?
Sean Muir – I find that people who are in knowledge transfer or in communications, they get it right away in a lot of cases. I find in a lot of cases, that people who are more traditional - teachers or health delivery people who have always been in health delivery - they are less likely to get it. And sometimes that occurs at the very top – those people - a lot of people are on the ground – they usually get it quite easily as well. They can see the need for it.
Peter - What is it that they're not getting? Is it a threat to their way of looking at it?
Sean Muir – Well, that's a very good point. I think partially it's a threat because maybe I don't know about some people, especially in suicide prevention, because it wasn't their idea. Peter – Right.
Sean Muir – Sometimes they…it's perceived “well..no…okay we're not doing that because…”. I don't know if it's in the back of their mind or the forefront or what. Peter – Ok well there's a really good example of bringing up stove-pipes and silos and I remember I used to rail against silos saying that they were bad but in fact silos are pretty good tools, right? You put grain in it and you allow it to mature, but you have to get this stuff out of the silo – out into the market place.
Sean Muir – Ya.
Peter – And so, I think that within departments and within agencies, there's lots of transactional leadership. Is that around a particular area of work or study, there's lots of good leadership around that particular… that particular area, but not necessarily across - that kind of transformational – that integrated kind of leadership. Part of what I've seen with what you are trying to do is you're moving across a whole different series. What are some of the challenges of trying to transform a way of looking at health promotion or looking at issues? How difficult is it to...to change those minds of the more traditional practices?
Sean Muir – Well I'd say it going to be tremendously difficult. People say that change in government - it takes eons just because people. I see some people who go into government and they're young and they're buoyant and they're exited and they just get ground down by the system because things sort of plot along in the way that government does. And think it's going to take…I think it's going to take a long time. I think there are going to be a few visionaries that get on board and try to make some changes but I think it's going to be a good long while yet before there's any real changes in the way we teach youth, in the way we interact with youth – the way we do knowledge transfer for sure. Peter – Do you see it coming?
Sean Muir – Oh, I see it coming, sure.
Peter – Maybe you can talk a little bit about…about that, because you are using comic books as a method of knowledge exchange and knowledge transfer right now. And it's a good tool, it's portable and you can repeat it over and over again – it's visually appealing. But you've also been playing with video and using things that are more animated. Where…what do you see the future of what you're doing in terms of knowledge transfer in dealing with the issues that you're dealing with? Sean Muir - It's a good question. I'm not sure where education is going to go or health is going to go. I certainly – if you look at any science fiction movie, everything is going to be computer based or moniter-based or it's going to be wireless based. I think that…I'm not sure whether that's a better way to teach kids or are we dumbing things down. Yes, we are doing - it started off as a comic book idea, which created the comic book, then we decided to create an animated short so we sort of layered on top of that. So….and that was adjusting a different kind of literacy then reading. Because an evaluation hasn't been done yet, I think that's part of the reason why we haven't had as much buy-in as we'd like. I think if we had some cold, hard facts, I think there would be a lot more buy-in. Peter –So at this point, you're really on a cutting edge of doing something in Canada and so…there's that…and so, it's hard to be an innovator - you actually have to make mistakes and other people learn from them and we can move on from there. But, my sense is that given the kind of up-take that you've had with this comic book and the interest from other places, is that this is growing but maybe there's not the infrastructure in place or the incentives in place. Maybe you can talk a little about that, that if you were to start this again, what sort of infrastructure would you like to see in place or what sort of incentives would you like to have that would draw you in? You've said there's first you do is look for some money, but clearly there's not enough resources currently in place. What would it take for people to engage in more creative forms of knowledge exchange?
Sean Muir – I think if I had to do it again, I don't know that I could do it any differently than I did. The first comic got funded for $10,000, but it cost us $30,000 so it was a ton of volunteer input and we borrowed from other projects and ran up our credit limit. And so it was really difficult. I couldn't say, “well I'm not going to, we're going to put out the comic but we're going to wait for evaluation money”. Well, I think we really had to… we had to create the resource first. And that's what started the buzz, that's what got people thinking. That's what really started everything. I don't think I could have done it any differently. It was….
Peter - Could you see your efforts with the comic book and say, a researcher at a university like the University of Victoria or here in Vancouver at the University of British Columbia or Simon Fraser University - could you see partnering with them right at the beginning of the project in order to build in that evaluation process as you're actually doing it? Sean Muir – On a new project? Absolutely Peter – On a new project? Sean Muir – Ya for sure.
Peter – Ok, and is that something that you would want to see supported?
Sean Muir – I would like to see that supported. I guess the one difficulty that we'd have is it depends who the audience is. If it's a First Nations audience or an aboriginal youth audience, I think that it's really better to have an aboriginal First Nations research group involved. And then that's a whole sticky mess as well. Then you're talking about who retains the copyright to the information? How is data shared? Who are the community-based researchers? It gets a bit sticky when you start involving first nations communities, because they've been burned so many times before, they want a stake. Peter – Right.
Sean Muir- …and rightly so.
Peter – So how do you ensure good practice? How do you ensure that they get the stake that they want right up front?
Sean Muir – I think if it's for an aboriginal youth audience, I think that you have to use … involve an aboriginal youth research group right from the start. If someone like U of Vic or U BC wants to be involved, I think we'd do something for the general population. I think that would be more appropriate.
Peter – Ok, I mean that kind of sensitivity I think is really important. I'm looking at… you've talked a little bit about your challenges, but what do you anticipate to be the greatest rewards. Let's talk…let's put the best part on this is that you've talked a little bit about what you hoped that comes out of the use of these comic books, that suicide is reduced, that obesity is reduced, that kids stay in school. Do you see that happening?
Sean Muir – Well, I think it's too early yet and I don't think we'll know. I haven't received any phone calls or emails from someone saying “my kid stayed in school” or “my son”… you know, or from someone who says “I didn't commit suicide because of your comic”. And I don't expect that ever will happen. I've always had quite low expectations for the project that if it, which I think is appropriate. If over the course of five years or ten years, however long, one person didn't commit suicide and I don't even have to know about it – they don't even have to call me - they just in their own minds decided “well I'm going to stick at it another day, I'm going to stick it out another day. I'm going to believe in myself – I'm not gonna…. I'm going to see it through”. Then, I mean, hundreds of hours, tens of thousands of dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars, whatever it is, I think it's worth it. Peter – Ok.
Sean Muir - It's the same thing as diabetes. I mean what's the cost to a family or to the Government on the cost of diabetes or FASD. I think that's a couple of million bucks over the course of a lifetime. Suicide, if someone suicidal kills themselves, there's a cost. Not only to that family and to society but there's a cost to that – the police, the investigation – if there's an attempt - being in the hospital, psychiatrists – there's a cost associated with everything so I think that from a purely financial point of view, there's benefits. Peter – Do you see that the work that you are doing, even if it's in a small part, if it's not directly….if you can't directly attribute it to a complex problem like suicide, that it's perhaps increasing the – you mentioned the self esteem of youth - that it's overall if it's not necessarily reducing mortality, that it's increasing the quality of life for a certain number of people. Do you see that as perhaps a positive effect of engaging this type of work?
Sean Muir – Absolutely, and I fully anticipate that that's happening but again, if we don't measure it… Peter – …that's hard to measure Sean Muir – …ya, it's hard to measure and that's really the key – is how do we go to the next level? How do we get this funded? How does this become an industry? Not for profit industry, I don't mean that, but how does this become part of the protocols of teaching youth. Peter – I know it's hard to predict the future and you know, most crystal balls are pretty cloudy, and if I could accurately… but where do you see the nature of knowledge exchange going? Do you see it becoming increasingly visual or increasingly on demand? Increasingly alternative - that text is not necessarily the way that people are going to get information that they need?
Sean Muir - I hope so. I think most people should finally know by now that the brochures and pamphlets don't work. I've heard health professionals don't read them – I don't read them and I'm educated and I'm interested and I don't read them. So for people who are visual learners or have low literacy, they are certainly not. And I believe that the stat is that people with low literacy, have generally…have a lower – are less healthy.
Peter –What are your most heartfelt desires in terms of increasing the learning within the communities that you look at and facilitating that process over the longer term?
Sean Muir – I'd like to see –I'd like to see these people start thinking more outside of the box. The best way to describe it for me I think personally, is, I'm not from the medical profession, I'm not from the education profession. I came from the business world so everything that I do now is through a new set of eyes. Whereas people who are in education and who are in a profess…who are medical, they've done that right from, you know day one, or their second, third or forth year of university. And I think it's much harder to see what's going on outside when your own…when you're concentrating mostly on what's going on in your own job, day-to-day. I think people in health and education have blinders on in a lot of cases and … Peter – …and so perhaps organizations like CCL can help introduce people to those that they wouldn't necessarily see. Sean Muir – Ya.
Peter – That it's in that interaction that maybe some new value can come out. Sean Muir – Ya.
Peter – Sean, it's been a real pleasure talking to you as always. Sean Muir – Thank you.
Peter – All right, thanks very much.
Sean Muir – No trouble.
Transcript – Part II That's good, well that's what we were trying to do is to, is I think we can say already is make sure you've got Pete – ya ya no M – learning how to use this stuff Man – learning how to use this stuff P – and that's the one that actually came with is so, so it just comes out of there M - ya P – well I think that's, I mean that's a actually a really important, that's that's a really important piece
