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Sports and the Sexes, Part 3

Part 3

Steve: My big point it that I don't think it should be a right. Like, if I run the South Eastern British Columbia Car Racing Association and I say yeah, why not? Let's have women racers, good. And the group in the next jurisdiction says no, we don't want them, they should be able to say that. I just don't think it's a fundamental right. Sean: Why?

Steve: Because I don't think it's a right. We aren't born with rights, like who made it a right, you know? The organizers? It's like this whole idea of if we form an association. It's almost like saying, well, a person has the right to work here, because they want to work here? Well, no. I get to decide who works here. You know. I just think we have stretched the definition of right so far that we are no longer dealing with, sort of, fundamental rights like the right to vote and freedom from persecution, freedom from certainly, in employment for example, you are evaluating people looking for a job based on their race or their gender or whatever.

But we are talking here about recreation. We're talking about show business basically. I think in the case of hockey, even though I think it's unlikely that many women will be able, I think goal tending is easier but even being a goal tender is quite physical. But we had the case of Haley Wickenheiser who played at a very high level in Finland and I don't know the motives of that team in Finland whether it was more for promotion or because they genuinely thought that Haley Wickenheiser was better than somebody else they could bring in. Whatever their motives, good for them.

My own view is, I don't think it's a right. I don't think, if the rest of the league said we don't want women in this league because this is a men's league I think they should be able to say that. Similarly, if a women's league was going and some guy shows up and says I want to play in your league and one of the teams says that we want this guy and the rest of the leagues says we don't want guys in this league it's a women's league, they should be able to say that. I just think there is a fine line between what is a fundamental human right and other forms of association and activity where I think using this heavy hand of rights, human rights, it's overdoing it. Sean: So if we take the amateur sports and lower level sports we have that kind of differentiation available, let's say that goes that way. Steve: Right.

Sean: What about if you go into a sport where there is only one premier league like NHL where there is no venue for women to have the equivalent type of thing for women to compete in regarding promotion of it, you know just the scale of it?

Mark: There is no law or rule in place to say that women can't play in the NHL. The reality is so far there hasn't been a woman that can play in the NHL. Sean: And that's the big issue. NHL is probably not the best example of it.

Mark: I think it's an example. They've tried to have women hockey leagues and they weren't successful for whatever reason. Sean: Except in the Olympics.

Mark: The Olympics is different because you're country is playing and you're excited but are people going to spend their money to watch women's hockey every night? It hasn't proved good. They may in the future but reality of the level is a huge drop below.

Steve: But this is the part that Sean is making, in the case of hockey it's not just the women hockey leagues that are not well attended. If you have a senior league or if you have a minor hockey or east coast hockey league, if it's very much localized, like if that's all the hockey there is in such and such a town maybe people will get out and watch it. I guess the women professionals, they've got, probably, to choose areas where either they are - maybe they are better in big cities, I have no idea. So the NHL is far better than any other league.

So the question is, if you had a woman who was skilled enough and strong enough to play with the men, should she be allowed to play there? My feeling is, that the people who run the NHL, they have a product that they are selling; they have a certain image of what that product is. If they think that having a women play is good for them to promote the product, fine. But if they feel that this is not good for them, like they don't want to see some 240 pound guy pile into a women and have her lying there and they foresee all of these circumstances, they should be able to say no.

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Part 3

Steve: My big point it that I don't think it should be a right. Like, if I run the South Eastern British Columbia Car Racing Association and I say yeah, why not? Let's have women racers, good. And the group in the next jurisdiction says no, we don't want them, they should be able to say that. I just don't think it's a fundamental right. Sean: Why?

Steve: Because I don't think it's a right. We aren't born with rights, like who made it a right, you know? The organizers? It's like this whole idea of if we form an association. It's almost like saying, well, a person has the right to work here, because they want to work here? Well, no. I get to decide who works here. You know. I just think we have stretched the definition of right so far that we are no longer dealing with, sort of, fundamental rights like the right to vote and freedom from persecution, freedom from certainly, in employment for example, you are evaluating people looking for a job based on their race or their gender or whatever.

But we are talking here about recreation. We're talking about show business basically. I think in the case of hockey, even though I think it's unlikely that many women will be able, I think goal tending is easier but even being a goal tender is quite physical. But we had the case of Haley Wickenheiser who played at a very high level in Finland and I don't know the motives of that team in Finland whether it was more for promotion or because they genuinely thought that Haley Wickenheiser was better than somebody else they could bring in. Whatever their motives, good for them.

My own view is, I don't think it's a right. I don't think, if the rest of the league said we don't want women in this league because this is a men's league I think they should be able to say that. Similarly, if a women's league was going and some guy shows up and says I want to play in your league and one of the teams says that we want this guy and the rest of the leagues says we don't want guys in this league it's a women's league, they should be able to say that. I just think there is a fine line between what is a fundamental human right and other forms of association and activity where I think using this heavy hand of rights, human rights, it's overdoing it. Sean: So if we take the amateur sports and lower level sports we have that kind of differentiation available, let's say that goes that way. Steve: Right.

Sean: What about if you go into a sport where there is only one premier league like NHL where there is no venue for women to have the equivalent type of thing for women to compete in regarding promotion of it, you know just the scale of it?

Mark: There is no law or rule in place to say that women can't play in the NHL. The reality is so far there hasn't been a woman that can play in the NHL. Sean: And that's the big issue. NHL is probably not the best example of it.

Mark: I think it's an example. They've tried to have women hockey leagues and they weren't successful for whatever reason. Sean: Except in the Olympics.

Mark: The Olympics is different because you're country is playing and you're excited but are people going to spend their money to watch women's hockey every night? It hasn't proved good. They may in the future but reality of the level is a huge drop below.

Steve: But this is the part that Sean is making, in the case of hockey it's not just the women hockey leagues that are not well attended. If you have a senior league or if you have a minor hockey or east coast hockey league, if it's very much localized, like if that's all the hockey there is in such and such a town maybe people will get out and watch it. I guess the women professionals, they've got, probably, to choose areas where either they are - maybe they are better in big cities, I have no idea. So the NHL is far better than any other league.

So the question is, if you had a woman who was skilled enough and strong enough to play with the men, should she be allowed to play there? My feeling is, that the people who run the NHL, they have a product that they are selling; they have a certain image of what that product is. If they think that having a women play is good for them to promote the product, fine. But if they feel that this is not good for them, like they don't want to see some 240 pound guy pile into a women and have her lying there and they foresee all of these circumstances, they should be able to say no.